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Episode Transcript:

SchoolCEO Conversations is an Apptegy Media production. We like to have insightful conversations with education's most inspiring and thoughtful leaders. In this episode, we talk with Dr. Shon Hildreth, Executive Director of Human Resources for the Randolph County School System in North Carolina. Here are today's hosts, Michael and Brittany.

Michael: We're really excited to have Dr. Shon Hildreth from Randolph County School System in North Carolina with us today. He recently completed his dissertation where he actually looked at local perceptions of a local charter school moving into the area and how school districts responded to it. So really excited to jump into the topic, Shon. Thanks for joining us today.

Shon: Glad to be here.

Michael: And so before we go ahead and get into the topic, could you just share with us how you got into education in the first place?

Shon: Yeah. I was actually influenced by some great teachers that I had growing up. And, two of those were my mother who was an elementary school teacher, and then my father who started out in education, got out of education, then got back into education. And then my stepmom was an elementary school teacher as well. And now my sister is actually a teacher. So, it's kinda like a family thing.

Michael: Both my parents are high school math teachers, so I definitely can relate a bit. I was curious, did you have your parents as teachers or were you not in their classes?

Shon: No, I did not.

Michael: Okay. Gotcha. I know my brotherwas pretty upset when my mom started at the high school that we were at the year that he was sent to the class that she was going to be teaching because that was the year after I was there, and I didn't have to have her. So he was very upset about that.

Shon: No. I think it would have actually been good to have them, but I did have them at home. So I had some great lessons from them.

Michael: Well, so getting a little bit into the topic today, and I mentioned before the dissertation that you completed recently. And in the dissertation, you mentioned how you had a charter school open up in the area near you originally, and that kind of spurred your interest into looking at this topic of the way that local school districts have responded to and perceive the impact of a local charter school. And, obviously, there's been a lot of conversation around charters. We've seen recently that charter enrollment has exploded through the pandemic as well. And there's all a lot of conversations around impacts on budgets, impacts on enrollments, things like that. But you actually interviewed people from various levels of the school district to see what their perceptions were. So I was just curious if you could just share why you decided to look into this, especially for your Doctoral dissertation.

Shon: Well, my introduction to charter schools came in the summer of 2013. At that time, I was a high school principal, and a new charter school opened up in our county. It was the first charter school. So we did not know anything about charter schools at that time. And so over the next three years or so, they pulled quite a few students from us. And so our enrollment dropped actually about 10%, which may not seem much, but we were a school that had over a thousand students. And so, enrollment dropped precipitously, and I found myself also in the difficult position of having to displace teachers because of falling enrollment. So that was my experience. The strange thing was that although the charter school had moved in, I knew nothing about it. And I knew nothing about charter schools in general. And most of the people, my colleagues, did not either because we were all new to the charter school movement because, like I said, it was the first one in our county. 

Michael: And so when you said you had about a 10%, so it's about a 100 students or so, that's about, what, 800,000 million dollars or so that you're probably missing from the budget on a yearly basis of that 10% drop.

Shon: Yeah. Correct. And, you know, each school district obviously has a different per pupil expenditure. Mhmm. But, yes, I mean, on average, you're talking about quite a bit of money and and then resources lost because of dropping student enrollment. And so, obviously, that impacted my curiosity greatly because I thought, you know, I didn't know what charter schools are, what is drawing the students to this charter school because academically, we were much better in regards to academic performance on test scores. And so I didn't understand what the draw was. And I really didn't understand what their mission was at that time. So I was trying to figure out a lot of those things, and that's how this came about as my own research.

Michael: And so digging a little bit into the research, could you share how you actually did this study? Right? So, like, what did you do in order to kind of get this assessment or get these views on charters and that impact? I was just curious for our listeners if we could just share that to make sure we're on the same page.

Shon: Yep. It was qualitative study. I interviewed 20 school personnel from two different school districts that had been impacted by one charter school in particular. And that charter school…

Michael: Both impacted by the same charter school? I just wanna make sure that was…

Shon: Correct. They were both impacted by the same charter school. So that was interesting and unique to me. And in total, I interviewed 20 people across two different school districts, about 10 from each district, if I remember correctly. The interviews were semi-structured, and took approximately an hour. And then I used an interview guide that was based on my review of the literature to create open ended questions. What I did then is I conducted all the interviews face to face and one on one. And I started out with, like, the primary question, how are leaders in public schools responding to charter schools?

Brittany: So did you mostly interview leaders, or how did you select who you wanted to interview?

Shon: Well, I selected this based on literature review and just the fact of leadership in the school district making change, policy change, those types of things. So I wanted to touch base with those folks that were, I guess, on the ground and affecting the movement of leadership across the district. So I was talking to superintendents, human resources, directors, assistant superintendents, and people in curriculum. I also talked to six principals in addition to the central office staff that I talked to, public relations officer, finance officer, those types of people.

Michael: And so what sort of questions did you ask them? Like, where did you kind of take these conversations with them?

Shon: Well, there were two sets of questions that were kind of governing my dissertation. The first set was what are the perceived impacts, whether that be academic, physical, demographic, or human resource on traditional public schools and these particular public school districts? And then what type of initiatives, revisions, and strategies have you implemented as a result of competition from that charter school?

Michael: So the two districts, I remember one was the more rural district, one was a more urban district. Right?

Shon: Correct. I called it the city district and the county district, although it's not really that cut and dry. But yes, two different school districts that had a charter school that was pulling students from both districts. And so I interviewed the superintendents of both districts and then some key personnel from both central offices, as well as six principals, three from each district.

Michael: And so I wanna get into the first part of that that you were talking about the perceived impacts. So when you looked at the two districts, what impacts were they feeling in both of those districts? Like, what similar impacts were they feeling through that charter school?

Shon: Well, I think that if you're looking at the, four areas of concern that I framed, I think the main impact would have been the loss of students. And with the loss of students, I'm trying to think how many, one lost 600 and one lost about 200. The city school lost about 200, which might not seem like a lot, but that wasn't a large school district. There were about 4,500 students. The county schools had lost about 600 and then actually when I finished the study it was up to 900 students to the charter school. And then they had lost an actual 100 to another charter school. So there were about a thousand students that they had lost. The primary impact was because of student enrollment. And like you had, you know, alluded to earlier that causes a financial impact. And so when it came down to money, at the time county schools had lost over $700,000. And, yeah, and, city schools, I guess, because of the higher per pupil expenditure had lost around a million. So that was one area that they had been impacted on. Academically, neither district said that they had had any perceived impacts. And really just looking at their test scores, they had actually improved. So there was no concern there. I think the city schools were concerned because they were losing some high achieving students, and they were worried if that trend continued, what might happen down the road.

Michael: That's an interesting issue that you mentioned, the losing the high achieving students because I do hear that sometimes when I talk with superintendents that I mean, obviously, you're concerned about, like, losing any students, but then also especially when you these charter schools and they move in a lot of times, they're really going after the students that are usually scoring well on standardized testing, which obviously we know there's plenty of issues around that. But that's typically who they're trying to target and trying to attract. And so I could definitely see how, like as an administrator, you're concerned about possibly losing all of your students who are probably carrying the scores in a lot of ways for better or worse.

Shon: Right. Yeah. That was I can think of one particular principal in the city schools who had mentioned, you know, the fact that he felt that those students were being targeted or recruited by the school because that gave them an immediate positive impact on test scores. I didn't really see it leaning one way or the other. Then I think, at least from the research I had done, you had some schools, some charter schools that were doing well and some that weren't, just like public schools. And, I think the particular thing with this charter school is that they had done a really good job with marketing and branding themselves as offering project based and problem based learning, that they were innovative, and that they had a flexible schedule. Really did a really good job with customer service and building relationships, putting ads out there, flyers, and word-of-mouth. So marketing wise, they had done a phenomenal job.

Brittany: Was this idea about marketing something that the school leaders you interviewed talked about? Like, was this something that they realized, oh, this is why this is happening, or at least this is why we're losing students and families to the Charter Network?

Shon: Yes. It was brought up by quite a few of the people that I interviewed. It was a recurring theme that the Charter School had done a really good job. They did not feel like they had gained anything from the Charter School as far as innovation or anything like that in regards to let me say this, in regards to the charter school being better than them, they weren't concerned about that at all. They felt like course offerings, pathways to graduation, being innovative, that they were ahead of the charter school. Although, some of them did feel like the charter school had spurred that on, even more so than before, but that they were already doing that, to impact their students positively.

Michael: I did notice in the study, you did mention this briefly, how a lot of the respondents mentioned that they didn't feel like the charter school spurred any, like, innovation within the district. And I know that's one of the arguments that people put about a charter school is creating this competition that's going to help spur innovation among just education in general. You mentioned they didn't necessarily see that, but it also seemed like from reading from the dissertation that there were cases where an outsider looked like this is kind of the case, but the insiders were saying they're not. And so I was curious on your end. Do you feel like it did have an impact on innovation, whether that is just speeding it up in some ways or even making student districts do completely different things? Or do you think maybe that that impact was pretty negligible?

Shon: I would say that several of the leaders I spoke to did believe that it had spurred innovation and creativity, but they were already out there doing a lot of those things. I think it just encouraged them to do more. I remember the superintendent of city schools talking about the fact and acknowledging that they were more focused on being competitive and sharing good things because of the influence of the charter school. But the main impetus for improving the area of, say, public relations was ultimately for the betterment of the students. So they wanted to let parents know about all the exciting opportunities that the district offered. But the superintendent of city schools said, you know, one of the reasons we're pushing this even harder is because of the influence of the charter school. So I think just the impetus to continue to do it and to do it well, to tell I heard the phrase, we wanna tell our story, and I heard that multiple times, make sure we have to tell our story. So I think that was a big impetus from both districts was that we need to get our story out there because if we don't, then it's not gonna be heard. And then that's, I think, when we run into issues.

Michael: Well, and I think the issue of, like, school marketing, PR, things like that, is a little bit interesting because I think if you ask, like, a parent or a community member, like, should schools be focused on marketing? Right? I think, like, most people will probably say no as, like, their first gut reaction. But you mentioned how, right, this is about telling this story or really promoting the stories. There is an aspect of competition, but there's also an aspect of really this is about impacting students and their performance. And so I was curious how you feel like telling that story or promoting that story does impact that performance or that student or, you know, just those students in general.

Shon: Well, I think if you look back to the way the Charter School did, they did a really good job of selling the fact that they were doing problem and project based learning. And from the people that I interviewed, they felt like they almost had a monopoly on that. Like, the charter school was the only place offering that. Well, we knew that public schools were offering that too, but were they getting that out there? And I think that the key difference was that they were doing such a good job of selling that. They were selling the fact that they had flexibility. Flexibility in their schedule, that they were a smaller setting. For these districts that had some bigger schools, they were a smaller setting which may have felt safer. They also had newer facilities. And then, you know, I think even the athletics piece, if you read that, where parents wanted their children to be able to play sports, whether it be in middle or high school level, and at a big high school middle school, maybe felt like they wouldn't be given the chance. And so the smaller environment of the charter school was more attractive.

Michael: So I am curious as you think back on, like, you when you were a principal, after you've run this study and then you've conducted those interviews, what would you have done differently? Or is there anything you would have done differently now if, for example, you were starting back, like, in 2013 all over again?

Shon: That's a tough one. I think one of the things I learned about the most was that at the time, I really was focused on test scores and growth, which were great. We actually, our high school, one of the years that I was there, we were in the top 20 of all the high schools in the state in growth, which is very important. I would not put that aside, but knowing that there are also other things that parents are looking at when they're choosing options. And there are often a variety of reasons that are non academic. Like I said, school athletics, added flexibility, the smaller school setting, brand new facilities. The things that maybe you don't think about sometimes have been primary reasons for a parent to choose a school. But now I think in the twenty-first century, we have to think about those things because public schools no longer have a monopoly. And so there is a great deal of competition, be it from charter schools or homeschools and even private schools. So we have to think about those things and think about not only marketing ourselves, but branding ourselves. I think we're doing incredible things in our schools, innovative things. It's letting people know that we're doing those things. And fortunately, I'm in a really good school system that does that well. They're not only doing innovative things, but they are getting it out there.

Michael: Mhmm. Well, I think about, like, the charter movement in general or just the school choice movement in overall. If everyone had the understanding that, like you were saying, mean, there's amazing things happening in schools every single day, like constantly across the country. The narrative around that school choice around competition would probably be a lot different, right? If that perception was already out there, people would already understand that. So, you know, we would talk about real reasons to market. Right? Well, if we would have stopped, for example, charter schools in North Carolina from opening up years ago, there's a lot of funds that school districts would still be having, and a lot of students would still be being served by those school districts and wouldn't be elsewhere now.

Shon: Yeah. Great point. Yes, sir. I mean, I think it's establishing those positive relationships with our community and their stakeholders, and letting them know that we do want their students, because we really do. But taking that next step to make sure that they understand that we really do. And not just for the fact of marking our schools, but for the fact that we wanna improve for the benefit of all students.

Brittany: Mhmm. So like you, my introduction to charter schools was pretty abrupt. I moved from rural Arkansas to Washington, D. C. And started looking for a teaching job. And I remember someone was like, Oh, have you applied to KIPP? Have you applied to French Open? And I was like, What kind of school names are these? What kind of district is this? I had never really, there weren't any charter schools in the area that I had grown up in and that I had started off my career, and I quickly learned. And a decade later, I have a very different and very nuanced understanding of charter schools. Since you first heard of them in 2013, how has your understanding of charter schools changed, and what have you learned?

Shon: Well, I think because I guess I've had a bad experience with charter schools, I think the research actually brought me into a place where I saw that some Charter schools are providing a better learning environment than some public schools and that there are a lot of traditional public schools that are doing a great job. It's not an either or type of thing. But the fact is that we need to get better for kids sake and there are charter schools that are, I hate to say not public private schools, but you know that word public private school that maybe some aren't really fulfilling the true mission of charter schools. Mhmm. And then there are some that actually are. So I think just like there's some traditional public schools that are doing a great job and there's some that aren't.

Michael: And there are also states too, like Oregon, I think most charter schools are actually operated under the local district as well as like an overseer, and I think maybe California is somewhat similar to that in certain cases too. So there are even different models of how charters are implemented across the country. This isn't actually when we talk about charters, it really isn't a universal thing.

Shon: No. I mean, it really is not. And each charter school is completely different. I would say that, you know, in North Carolina, for example, I know that public schools have about 1,500,000 students now, I think, in our schools. And I think about 8%, a little over 8% are now charter schools. I think over 100,000 students are attending charter schools now which is a lot, you know, and across the nation. When I did this study there were 3,000,000 students that were attending charter schools out of the not quite 50,000,000 students attending public school in The United States.

Brittany: So we were reading some research earlier today that showed that most of the growth in the past year in charter enrollment actually went to online charter schools. Did that come up at all in your research? I know it's not quite the interview portion, but I didn't know if you had some other insights you'd like to share.

Shon: Well, I did not because I think that's been an outgrowth of the pandemic, although we saw that coming. I will say this, my school district in particular started a virtual academy. And I think that as public schools do a variety of different things, they're gonna have more options to compete with charter schools like the Virtual Academy, and homeschools, whereas you could have a homeschool student have to pay for the materials. Now you can go through the public school

Brittany: Mhmm.

Shon: And use their resources, and you're not having to pay anything. You get the Virtual Academy. So we started the Virtual Academy this year.

Brittany: So what would your recommendation be to districts who maybe are having that experience of a new charter moving in and learning how to cope with that?

Shon: I just think like the superintendents and district leadership from both school districts that I spoke with who were fantastic, by the way, they shared that you have to tell your story because if you don't, your competitors will. Mhmm. And it wasn't because of the competitors, but it was because you've gotta do it for students because we care about our kids. We wanna see them do well. And public relations and marketing are important. They're not going away in order for us to be successful. Customer service, having a multitude of options for all learners, I think, those things are important as we continue to move into a very different world.

Michael: Well, just to wrap up then, I guess, you know, thinking about charters, thinking about how school districts are addressing this, any last advice or any last recommendations for other school leaders out there on whether it is addressing charter schools or just marketing in general?

Shon: I think if public schools are serving students better because of charter schools, then that's great. Sometimes competition can be a good thing, and if it's gonna make us better, then that's fantastic. But ultimately at the end of the day we want to serve students better so I think that's the most important thing.

Brittany: Alright well thank you so much.

Shon: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thanks for listening to this SchoolCEO conversation. You can connect with Shon and Randolph County Schools on Twitter at RandCO Schools. Subscribe to SchoolCEO at schoolceo.com for more advice, stories, strategies for leading your schools. 

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